"There's really no centralised source in Ireland or even in any county in Ireland for surviving religious parish registers to find the possible baptismal records for your ancestors or even respond to your queries about who might have been related to whom in the England census records. Finding out information in Ireland about the survival of parish registers and the years covered by those surviving registers is wholly dependent on first obtaining the exact birth locations from the emigrants records abroad.

There are tens of thousands of even religious parish registers in Ireland none of which are available in any centralised location or available for research in any centralised format.

When you say you have census, birth and death records and marriage records it always helps to identify whom you have those records for specifically.

You have Michael, Margery (unnamed last name) Doran and 5 children from the UK census.

There are no records in Ireland to identify if the Michael Doran who died in the Wigan Workhouse is the Michael you have from the census records or another Michael Doran. You'd need to post on the Lancashire Message board to search for records to find that Michael's specific death record in England to see what the relationship might have been to yours.

There are no records in Ireland to identify whether Bridget Doran in the next household as a lodger from the census records is related to your Dorans or not. Her civil and church records in England would be sources to identify that connection, if any. For example, were her parents names listed in her civil and church marriage record the same as Michael's? That would be one clue. Another one is of course the same town/townland, civil parish and county of birth in addition to parents names.

So for any of emigrants born in Ireland you need to search their civil and church records in England to identify specifically the town/townland, civil parish and county of birth in Ireland.

The records would include:
Michael and Margery unnamed last name:
Civil and church death records, cemetery record, tombstone, obituary and wills.

Their children born in Ireland, i.e.:
Michael, John, James, Alice and Margaret:
Their civil and church marriage and death records, cemetery records, tombstones, obituaries and wills.

Michael and Margery unnamed last name Doran's grandchildren, i.e. the children of their five children:
Their civil and church birth/baptism, marriage and death records, obituaries which may include where each of their parents was born in Ireland.

There are no records in Ireland about who emigrated, where they went or what happened to them after emigration. There are no ships passenger records for the crossings to England from Ireland.

So England is your source for research at the moment with the information you have so far and with the queries you currently have relating to the England census records.

To find Michael and Margery unnamed last name possible baptismal records in Ireland you need to find in their England records the following detail also:
a) their parents names
b) dates of birth
c) birthplace in Ireland, i.e. the town/townland, civil parish and county
d) their religous denomination

Each parent may have been born in different locations in Ireland even though they were married and emigrated as a family. The children too could also have been born in locations in Ireland different than their parents and even different from each other.

So I recommend you post your message with your queries on the England Lancashire County Message Board to search for specific records for your family in England and find out where and how those records can be accessed.

Since you searched LDS I assume you don't live in England but probably live in the US. LDS doesn't have complete microfilm records for England in their library and so you'll need to search records sources in England to find the necessary records there as well as where and how they might be accessed.

There are many online sources in England to find civil registrations records, i.e. bmds/vital records but of course not all detail about anything in England is available online either.

Here's information about researching England vital records which began there in 1837:
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/CivilRegistration.html

http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/

Regarding religious parish records, it of course depends on the family's religious denomination but you can find out about how to obtain religious parish records from the England Lancashire Message board for parishes in Lancashire.

Many people abroad assume "Irishness" or religion based on surnames and actually surnames don't give indications at all of "Irishness" or religious denomination for further assumptions about those. Actual records for the individuals are the source to possibly identify what other religious parish records might be searched for a religious denomination to find family information.

There are many more records available to you in England than there would possibly even be surviving in Ireland to research. Hopefully, the detail I've given you about the records to search in England for the family members and those who you're trying to identify relationships to your specific ancestors will be helpful identifying the information you need before you can begin research for the correct town/townland, civil parish and county in Ireland for possible surviving parish registers for their religious denomination."

Regards.
Eilis O'Hara

RESEARCHING GORMANS

The same guidelines, above and below, apply when searching Gormans. Just substitute Gorman for Doran or Doyle, except concentrate in County Meath.

There's really no centralised source in Ireland or even in any county in Ireland for surviving religious parish registers to find the possible baptismal records for your ancestors or even respond to your queries about who might have been related to whom in the England census records.Finding out information in Ireland about the survival of parish registers and the years covered by those surviving registers is wholly dependent on first obtaining the exact birth locations from the emigrants records abroad.

There are tens of thousands of even religious parish registers in Ireland none of which are available in any centralised location or available for research in any centralised format.

When you say you have census, birth and death records and marriage records it always helps to identify whom you have those records for specifically.

You have Michael, Margery (unnamed last name) Doran and 5 children from the UK census.

There are no records in Ireland to identify if the Michael Doran who died in the Wigan Workhouse is the Michael you have from the census records or another Michael Doran. You'd need to post on the Lancashire Message board to search for records to find that Michael's specific death record in England to see what the relationship might have been to yours.

There are no records in Ireland to identify whether Bridget Doran in the next household as a lodger from the census records is related to your Dorans or not. Her civil and church records in England would be sources to identify that connection, if any. For example, were her parents names listed in her civil and church marriage record the same as Michael's? That would be one clue. Another one is of course the same town/townland, civil parish and county of birth in addition to parents names.

So for any of emigrants born in Ireland you need to search their civil and church records in England to identify specifically the town/townland, civil parish and county of birth in Ireland.

The records would include:
Michael and Margery unnamed last name:
Civil and church death records, cemetery record, tombstone, obituary and wills.

Their children born in Ireland, i.e.:
Michael, John, James, Alice and Margaret:
Their civil and church marriage and death records, cemetery records, tombstones, obituaries and wills.

Michael and Margery unnamed last name Doran's grandchildren, i.e. the children of their five children:
Their civil and church birth/baptism, marriage and death records, obituaries which may include where each of their parents was born in Ireland.

There are no records in Ireland about who emigrated, where they went or what happened to them after emigration. There are no ships passenger records for the crossings to England from Ireland.

So England is your source for research at the moment with the information you have so far and with the queries you currently have relating to the England census records.

To find Michael and Margery unnamed last name possible baptismal records in Ireland you need to find in their England records the following detail also:
a) their parents names
b) dates of birth
c) birthplace in Ireland, i.e. the town/townland, civil parish and county
d) their religous denomination

Each parent may have been born in different locations in Ireland even though they were married and emigrated as a family. The children too could also have been born in locations in Ireland different than their parents and even different from each other.

So I recommend you post your message with your queries on the England Lancashire County Message Board to search for specific records for your family in England and find out where and how those records can be accessed.

Since you searched LDS I assume you don't live in England but probably live in the US. LDS doesn't have complete microfilm records for England in their library and so you'll need to search records sources in England to find the necessary records there as well as where and how they might be accessed.

There are many online sources in England to find civil registrations records, i.e. bmds/vital records but of course not all detail about anything in England is available online either.

Here's information about researching England vital records which began there in 1837:
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/CivilRegistration.html

http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/

Regarding religious parish records, it of course depends on the family's religious denomination but you can find out about how to obtain religious parish records from the England Lancashire Message board for parishes in Lancashire.

Many people abroad assume "Irishness" or religion based on surnames and actually surnames don't give indications at all of "Irishness" or religious denomination for further assumptions about those. Actual records for the individuals are the source to possibly identify what other religious parish records might be searched for a religious denomination to find family information.

There are many more records available to you in England than there would possibly even be surviving in Ireland to research. Hopefully, the detail I've given you about the records to search in England for the family members and those who you're trying to identify relationships to your specific ancestors will be helpful identifying the information you need before you can begin research for the correct town/townland, civil parish and county in Ireland for possible surviving parish registers for their religious denomination.

Regards.
Eilis O'Hara

Regarding our Doyles in Wigan, Lancashire, England.

James Doyle and Mary unnamed maiden name Doyle civil and church records in England for research would include the following to identify specifically where they were born in Ireland or possibly County Wexford:
Their civil and church death records, cemetery records, tombstones, obituaries and wills. You'd need their town/townland, civil parish of birth as well as each of their parents names.

They may not have been born in the same location as their only son Thomas.

Since they apparently had only one son, Thomas, born ca 1846 in which you believe was Wexford, Wexford would probably be Wexford Town in County Wexford based on what you've posted so far and you have his parents names too.

You can have paid research done in the Wexford Town Roman Catholic Parish records which is Wexford Roman Catholic Parish to search for a baptismal record for Thomas since the records for that Roman Catholic parish cover his estimated date of birth. Here's the link to the Wexford Roman Catholic Parish Registers with information on how and where you can have research done in the registers to find his possible baptismal record: http://www.ireland.com/ancestor/fuses/rcparishmaps/index.cfm...

You can request the Wexford Genealogy Centre to search their database for Wexford Town baptisms for you to find Thomas baptismal record and pay the fees involved for them to do so.

Alternately you can hire a professional researcher in Dublin City to search the actual microfilmed parish registers for you at the National Library of Ireland in Dublin City.

Or you can hire a local professional researcher in Wexford Town or area to search the microfilmed parish registers at the Wexford Library for you.

Regards.
Eilis O'Hara

 

Hello Bill,

Here's the link to the Lancashire, England message board where you can post your information regarding Doyles in Wigan, Lancashire to obtain more information from records and about records there about them as well as related family members records in England: http://boards.ancestry.com/localities.britisles.england.lan....

Regards.
Eilis O'Hara

 

Hello Bill,

Have you posted your message on the respective England board for additioal information about the family from their civil and church records in England?

Again, I believe we've corresponded in the past about your Dorans too but I'll recap basically what I said in the past fyi:

First of all there are no civil registrations records in Ireland before 1864 except for Protestant marriages beginning in 1845 and no surviving census records before 1901. Our civil registrations records aren't computerised or available online. There is no complete online source to find the records.

So you'd need to know the family's religious denomination to identify what religious parish registers exist for their specific birthplace in Ireland, i.e. the town/townland, civil parish and county, that may have survived that may include their baptismal records. There are no complete records for any religious denomination in Ireland whether it be Roman Catholic or Church of Ireland (Anglican) or any other religious denomination. There are no complete online records for the religious denominations either.

There are 32 counties in Ireland with 64,000 towns and townlands. There's a list of the names of all the towns and townlands at http://www.seanruad.com and pick any county of interest.

You'll see County Wexford for example has nearly 2500 towns and townlands.

There are no complete county wide records in Ireland for any religious denomination. You need the specific birthplace in Ireland to identify what parish registers might have survived for that specific birth location since many parish registers haven't survived. For example, nearly half the Church of Ireland (Anglican) parish registers were destroyed in a fire in Dublin in 1922. Many Roman Catholic parish registers don't even start records until well into the 1800s after Catholic Emancipation in Ireland in 1829. In County Wexford, many of the Roman Catholic parish records don't begin until the late 1800s after 1850.

I also gave you the following link to the Roman Catholic parish map in County Wexford previously and if you click on each parish on the map you'll see the years covered in the records as well as where and how the records might be accessed.
http://www.ireland.com/ancestor/browse/counties/rcmaps/wexfo...

So why do you need the specific town/townland, civil parish of birth in County Wexford particularly or in Ireland in general? That's to identify what, if any, Roman Catholic parish registers survive for that particular town/townland, civil parish and if they do what the years covered are in the surviving records. If you don't have the specific town/townland, civil parish of birth you won't be able to find out what Roman Catholic parish registers survive for that particular location, what the years covered are in the particular parish records, and where and how the records might be accessed.

You would need generally to have fee based research done in Roman Catholic parish registers in Ireland anyway even with an exact town/townland, civil parish and county of birth and even if the parish registers survive for the dates you need for that particular birth location.

So to identify the specific birth location, i.e. the town/townland, civil parish and county, you need to research the family's civil and church records in England to identify birth locations, parents names and dates of birth.

You should also be aware many people didn't even know exactly when they were born because they really didn't have any need to know it for employment purposes, for example. So they may have been born five to even ten years around the dates of birth they may have thought they were born. And of course the accuracy of any information in the census records in England depends on who gave the information to the census enumerator. A child might think a parent was younger or older than they really were.

The records would include the emigrant's (and the emigrants siblings if any) civil and church marriage and death records, cemetery records, tombstones, obituaries and wills.

Their children's (all the children, not just your direct line) civil and church birth/baptism, marriage and death records, cemetery records, obituaries are more sources to research.

There are no records in Ireland about who emigrated, where they went, when, or what happened to them after emigration.

There were no passenger records maintained for the ferry crossings from Ireland to England (or Scotland or Wales).

The Doran surname is also a very common one in even surviving parish records and even with the specific town/townland, civil parish and county of birth, and surviving parish records for that particular birth location covering the dates you need, there may be difficulty even sorting out the Dorans about who might be related to whom.

Regards.
Eilis O'Hara

 

Hello Bill,

Unfortunately you need the location where they were born in Ireland and that's the town/townland, civil parish and county, and their religious denomination, to identify what religious parish registers survive for that particular location, what the dates covered are in those particular registers and where and how the registers might be accessed.

Even with the location and if the parish registers survive for that particular location and cover the years you need, you will still have to pay for research in those registers to obtain the baptismal records.

Unlike England, there is no centralised access in Ireland to parish registers of any religious denomination. All parish records aren't available at any central place nor are they computerised.

So the first thing I recommend is for you to post on the England message board in Lancashire where your ancestors emigrated or subsequently on any of the message boards for locations where any of them went after that, to get the civil and church records and other records for those who emigrated and all (yes all) their children, not just your direct line.

Also look at the names of sponsors for marriages and baptisms who may have been emigrants from Ireland and whose records can also be searched.

Since I already gave you information about Roman Catholic Records in County Wexford as well as where and how they can be searched as well as the dates covered for the microfilmed records, I'll also explain Church of Ireland (Anglican) records since there's some question about the family's religious denomination. Of course there were also other religous denominations in Ireland including Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist, etc. and those records survival, availability, etc. are again different than Roman Catholic registers or even Church of Ireland (Anglican) registers.

According to Church of Ireland (Anglican) Archives in Dublin City, half the parish registrers for the Anglican Church were lost in a fire in Dublin in 1922. The Church of Ireland (Anglican) was the "official" or State church in Ireland until 1871.

While many people often believe their ancestors were Roman Catholic there is always the likelihood, depending on the specific local area and the English Government authorities in that local area (Ireland was governed by England until 1922) there may or may not have been any Roman Catholic parish allowed by the local English authorities. It varies greatly all over the island from location to location not only county but in areas within the county.

Since the Church of Ireland (Anglican) lost half the parish registers in the Dublin fire in 1922 that means the baptismal records in those parish registers were lost too.
Again, as with the Roman Catholic parish registers survival/existence and the dates covered in those, the only way to find out if the Church of Ireland (Anglican) register survived for the specific birth location town/townland, civil parish and county is to know that specific birth location.

In Ireland the Church of Ireland parishes generally followed the civil parish boundaries because the English Government set up the civil parishes based on the Church of Ireland parishes.

Here's a map of the civil parishes in County Wexford and you'll see there are 134 of them.
http://www.ireland.com/ancestor/fuses/civilparish/index.cfm?...

If you click on each civil parish on the map you'll see the names of the towns and townlands in each.

There aren't any centralised records for the Church of Ireland that includes all those parishes or even all those surviving parishes. Each parish record is independent and would need to be independently searched for the ones which survive to find a possible baptismal record in each.

Some of the surviving Church of Ireland parish registers are at the Church Archives in Churchtown, Dublin 14 (Dublin City) while other suviving ones are held in local custody.

The Church Archives in Dublin City can advise what parish register survives for a particular location and the dates covered as well as where the register can be accessed, i.e. at the Church Archives itself in Churchtown or locally at a local parish. Many of the Church of Ireland local parishes no longer exist or have been consolidated and so if a parish register has survived and is held locally, that location can vary depending on what parishes have been consolidated. In other words, it wouldn't be the same local parish you'd expect based on the civil parish map.

With a specific location of birth for each of the emigrants in County Wexford you can then contact the Church of Ireland Archives in Churchtown and they'll advise if those specific parish registers have survived as well as where and how they can be accessed. The Church of Ireland has established a fee schedule for researching their records if you don't go personally to the Archives in Churchtown and do the research yourself in the registers held there or go personaly to the local parish where the register might be held.

Here's the link to the Church of Ireland Archives when you find a specific birth location whether in County Wexford or elsewhere and an email addy to contact them about what records survived for that specific parish location and where and how they might be accessed:

http://www.ireland.anglican.org/?do=information&id=36

If in local custody, the local Vicar or Rector decides whether s/he will do research in the records for you and a fee schedule has been established for that. In the event the local Vicar or Rector decides the research cannot be done because of other commitments, then you'd need to hire a researcher to go to the location locally where the records are held to research the records there for you and professional paid researchers charge fees to do that and the fees they charge can vary widely from hourly fees to hourly fees plus expenses or some charge for a minimum amount of five hours research often plus expenses.

So you need a specific birth location confirmed by official records for your emigrants and not just a belief they were from some county based for example on that surname being a common one in that particular county.

So post your information on the Lancashire County, England Message Board including your queries about who was possibly related to who to get not only the information on additional records sources to search there (and elsehwere they lived) as well as how and where those records can be accessed in England or wherever.

I corresponded with Jerry Kelley for months and years to try to help him in his search in Ireland for where his ancestors originated much of which was originally based on the historic medieval tribes, i.e. the "septs" in Ireland and their locations hundreds of years ago.

While I appreciate and admire Jerry's enthusiasm in the US for the Irish language, Irish language classes in various locations there and his interest in medieval Irish studies and as I explained to him in great detail several times, the reality of finding specific baptismal records for ancestors born in Ireland in the 1800s is the necessity of finding -- for those specific ancestors -- the specific birthplaces in Ireland, their parents names, and religious denomination to find possible surviving baptismal records for those particular ancestors in that particular location. And finding the specific birthplaces in Ireland, i.e. the town/townland, civil parish and county, is based on complete and thorough research in all civil and church and other records for those ancestors and their children in the places where they went after emigration.

So hopefully you've found with your Dorgans/Dargans, Deargans, Ó Deargáin who I believe emigrated eventually to the US their specific birthplaces in Ireland whether in "East Cork" (a very large geogaphic area) or elsewhere, their parents names and religious denomination and have searched for baptismal records in "East Cork" or wherever for those specific family members baptisms because otherwise there's the very real possibility that even though the surname Dorgan is a common one in surviving records in County Cork, i.e. in "East Cork" that doesn't necessarily mean they're connected to your specific ancestors.

Your search in County Wexford could probably too be related to the medieval locations of the tribes, i.e. septs, with that surname, for example, Doran is in Irish Ó Deorain, a contracted form of Ó Deoradhain with the major sept branch in Leinster Province, i.e. in County Wexford, where they associated work-wise with the MacMurroughs who were rulers of the ancient territory of Uí Cinnsealaigh which takes in the current County Wexford. But that medieval information isn't really a basis for trying to find baptismal records for your specific Dorans who emigrated to England in the 1830s.

So while that information may be interesting historically you need to find your specific Dorans places of birth in Ireland from their specific records wherever they emigrated in England or elsewhere.

Regards.
Eilis O'Hara

 

Hello Bill,

Here's the link to the Lancashire, England message board where you can post your information regarding your Dorans in Wigan, Lancashire to obtain more information from records and about records there about them as well as related family members records in England to obtain more detail to get you back to their towns/townlands, civil parishes and counties of birth in Ireland, parents names, etc.

http://boards.ancestry.com/localities.britisles.england.lan....

Regards.
Eilis O'Hara

RESEARCHING POMFRETS

Spelling variations of this family name include: Pomphray, Pomfrey, Pomfrett, Pomfret, Pomfray, Pomefret, Pomphret and many more. There are more ways to spell this surname than any of our other family surnames. Unlike the others, this seems to be an English surname, although it is a very rare name found also in Ireland even though there are no Pomfret households in the Primary Valuation between 1848 and 1864. It is the English surname translated from the Latin "ponte fracto", (at) broken bridge

Pomfret is first found in Yorkshire where they were seated from very early times and were granted lands by Duke William of Normandy, their liege Lord, for their distinguished assistance at the Battle of Hastings in 1066 A.D.